Does an Indian degree hold any value in the US? [Archive]

snoopy

10-20-2006, 03:58 AM

I think Lyric is right. It depends on the University. As for you, Madras University is a deemed university and is recognised in India. I do not know about its credentials in the US though. I know a few people have moved over to the US with Bachelor's or Master's degree from Univ. of Madras. But, I have no idea about long distance PhD. You may need to do a bit of studying in this regard. For eg. check out genuine Universities in the USA through Consulate of US at Chennai. They have a good library there. Then, contact the Universities you are interested to check out if your degree is acceptable. All the best. and please do update us. That would benefit other seekers.

LilOne1989

10-22-2006, 09:02 PM

I would contact any schools you are interested in long before you spend any money because there have been many instances where people from other countries have claimed to have this degree or that degree when they really didn't have anything at all, not saying that this is you but often the outcome is really not good. Then there are some people who have degrees that outplay our degrees so it can work either way. But I would think that they might want you to take some test beforehand to show the level of knowledge that you have to make sure that you are placed properly.

lizakollman

10-23-2006, 03:06 AM

i think you should check with schools first, that is very important!

hermes

09-03-2008, 10:51 PM

johann

09-04-2008, 09:43 PM

Hi

First - DegreeIndia, I think your best bet, that will trump any argument, is to submit your credentials to a recognized North American credential evaluator, such as WES. Then you and ANY prospective school over here will know the EXACT equivalence of your degree.

They're at http://www.wes.org

Second - Hermes, it seems Indian universities in general (or at least those with DL) have woken up to the fact they can charge foreigners (those outside SAARC countries) a hefty premium. As you've found, both IGNOU and MKU have two-tier rates.

I guess they feel it is necessary to help them survive and keep prices down for their own nationals. As occurs here in Canada, the domestic tuition rate is said to represent only a fraction of the "real" cost of the student's attendance. The difference is made up largely by government support and the "real" price (or more) is charged to any foreign students. Yeah - the 5X rate hurts - but it's probably been deliberately calculated as what the traffic will bear. The school obviously doesn't care if everybody in the world can afford to attend; the affordability concern only applies (rightly, i.m.o.) to their own nationals and those of a select few neighbouring countries. The rest of us can like it or lump it - and that's fair, in my book.

Here in Canada, our universities also charge a "foreign rate" that's 'way over what Canadians pay -- somewhere between 2 and 3 times as much. Not 5 times, for sure, but then again, we're starting from a MUCH higher point. As I believe you're aware, Canadian university students pay tuition of - maybe 2 to 2 1/2 times on average - the $1,000 per semester you mentioned. The foreign-student surcharge is for exactly the same reason. The higher amount exacted from foreign students offsets the fact that they (or, more accurately their parents) have not paid years and years of Canadian taxes, partly in support of the universities.

I could end up being corrected, but I believe the same practice is common in most countries. If we don't like the way India (or any other country) does it, then I guess we're free to study elsewhere. There's always PFC, Ashworth and the Big 3. :-)

Johann

Tedmeister

09-05-2008, 04:20 AM

Message to degreeindia.

MKU now operates a US office. I spoke with their representative there some months ago but at the time they had no website or materials to send. Although prices are better than IGNOU, it sounds like foreigners are being charged perhaps 5X more than Indians in India. I don't mind paying a premium but it seems gouging - $1000 per semester (or was it per year, I forget). And that price is for full or part-time.

Can you share what you paid per year?Last I saw their website, Madurai Kamaraj University www.mkuniversity.org was charging grad students $1800US a year for foreigners and 1800 Indian rupees a year for Indians.

1800 rupees ~ $42
$1800 ~ 78,000 rupees

johann

09-05-2008, 10:32 PM

Hi

WOW - that's quite a difference, isn't it. More than 40 times! Well, I can see their reasoning. It doesn't take many foreigners at $1800 to subsidize a LOT of home-boys & home-girls paying $42!

I've heard recently that some schools in South Africa - one of the last bastions of cheap DL tuition - have instituted increased fees for foreigners, although nothing I've seen quoted uses a multiplier anywhere near this drastic!

Hermes, if you're looking for DL in Asia I'd say the best opportunities are Malaysian. Well-respected degrees (rigorous - much hard work) and prices are relatively cheap by Western standards - maybe not by most Asian standards (with the possible exception of Japan). DL bachelor's - average maybe $5-6,000 - some less.

If you haven't done so already, check out:

www.oum.edu.muy
www.wawasan.edu.my
www.usm.edu.my
www.mmu.edu.my

Cheers :-)

Johann

hermes

09-09-2008, 12:29 AM

I just found out today. They do not offer DL in regional geography, history, religion, art, etc.

johann

09-09-2008, 12:44 AM

Hi

Sorry they don't have your field(s) of interest at MOU. They won't at MMU either - DL degrees there are strictly business-related. That and tech. were the fields that I got most enquiries about.

I'm not sure if USM or Wawasan teach these subjects by distance. Hopefully, there's SOME good school that does. I know such studies can be done by DL from Indian schools, but we're both aware or the recent price moves.

Good hunting. I'll get on it myself over the next couple of days and post whtever I find that might interest you and other members with similar interests.

Johann

hermes

09-09-2008, 12:54 AM

Good to hear from you Johann. Although somewhat of a gamble I am considering (after doing groundwork research) just going there and signing up locally - in India, Indonesia, whatever. Of course, there is always the possibility that IGNOU goes by passport rather than physical presence/access to study centers. My question to MKU about a Canadian living in say Sri Lanka would be given price for Singhalese. Hey, I'm a mobile kind of guy!

johann

09-09-2008, 11:21 PM

Hi Hermes -

It's great that you're so mobile! You're guaranteed an interesting time, wherever you choose to study.

You've spoken of a couple of different regions in S. and SE Asia - Indonesia, India and Sri Lanka for starters. Ever consider S. Korea? Reason I ask is, I've heard:

(1) Very interesting and complex, culturally. Lots of history.
(2) Interesting linguistically. Korean is the eastern-most Turkic language, although it has absorbed Chinese and Japanese influences and loan-words. (Country celebrates its alphabet yearly - Hangul Day.)
(3) S. Korea puts high value and priority on education.
(4) 40 colleges and universities in the capital (Seoul) alone.

Also, for reasons of industry/commerce, the country has an appetite for teachers of English...so you might have a way to pay for your stay and school, too.

Worth looking into? :-)

Cheers

Johann

tamiluniversity

09-13-2008, 06:27 PM

Regarding the concern one has expressed about MKU Study Center in USA, we have to bring forth the following explanations:
MKU is one of the top ten Universities in India recognized by the recent University Grants Commission (UGC), New Delhi. The University has also been accredited by NAAC. This University is state owned and has been in operation since 1966. MKU is known to be a prompt University in its operations in India and around the world.
The MKU Study Center in USA conducts examinations in 5 major cities in the US and it enables the students to appear for exams in a region closest to them.
Regarding Hermes' opinion, we have a website www.mkudeusa.org and www.mkudde.org. Our center operates efficiently in answering the queries of the prospective candidates. The fee for the course is not per semester but per year. It appears Hermes has misunderstood the information that was provided to him/her.
If you are interested in obtaining an Indian Degree from the MKU Study Center, feel free to contact us at anytime. You may email us at tamiluniversity@hotmail.com

johann

09-13-2008, 08:40 PM

Hi TamilUniversity -

The MKU USA homepage would not work today. I tried several times to enter the site and the home page would not load.
I also tried the home page directly: http://mkudeusa.org/Home_Page.html No luck there either.

Not an impressive situation. Hopefully they can resolve this soon...

Johann

johann

09-14-2008, 08:44 PM

Hi

Well, this time it worked. Not very much info, though...I suppose it's just a teaser and you get more if you contact them.

I've no doubt it's legit. Any degree you earn is granted by MKU - a UGC-approved Indian University. If you want to use it in North America, you'll likely end up paying a few hundred bucks to a recognized credential evaluator like WES. I'm not qualified to predict how employers would take to these degrees. It depends how they're evaluated (what equivalency) and how the individual prospective employer regards foreign degrees in general - because that's what these are. No matter that you were born and raised in Iowa, earned the degree via the Internet or that there is a teaching centre in Maryland - your degree is granted by Madurai Kamaraj U. in the city of Madurai, Tamil Nadu, India, population around 867,000 last I looked.

I'm not impressed by their U.S. web presence - even when it's working. It wouldn't have cost them anything to put up some course details, etc. No individual course titles are shown. So naturally, the list of courses required for any degree is not shown. A list of degrees is shown, with a yearly fee, mostly in the $1200 to $1800 range. That sounds very reasonable, but for how many years, on average? The page gives no idea of the expected range of completion times for distance learners. Then again, even if it takes ten years, a Bachelor's degree for $12,000 is still a steal -- IF it evaluates to its North American equivalent.

They're using standard Indian terminology, like "marksheets" for transcripts and a "+2 pass" for undergraduate admission. I THINK that's High School grad (Grade 12) in North American terms. It's also called the 10+2 in India, and is the normal requirement there for University Entrance - two years beyond the 10-year diploma.

This is probably as cheap as any other way for a Non-Indian to earn a degree from an Indian school. If that's what you have your heart set on, you could ask them some questions, I guess. They've got some interesting Certificate programs too, including a one-year program in Astrology. They have (count 'em) FIVE exam centres in the US so you may have to travel a good distance once a year (or more?) for exams. Domestic distance schools have far better arrangements. I think this DL school still has a steep operational learning curve ahead of it.

I haven't taken their Astrology course, but I still see potential misfortune in the stars! The marketing aspect (if there is one) of their U.S. web-presence leaves me cold. It's a dismal effort - the least-attractive website I've ever seen for a legitimate school. Hopefully their service is better, as faulty service can be the ruination of any school - online or B&M, no matter how good the instruction and academic standards.

Johann

ham

09-14-2008, 09:50 PM

haven't taken their Astrology course, but I still see potential misfortune in the stars! The marketing aspect (if there is one) of their U.S. web-presence leaves me cold. It's a dismal effort - the least-attractive website I've ever seen for a legitimate school. Hopefully their service is better, as faulty service can be the ruination of any school

in the past I tried repeatedly to contact IGNOU and a few other accredited DE universities in India.
I never heard back from IGNOU and the Association of Indian Universities (http://aiuweb.org/).
It took me 2 months to get a negative reply from a couple others...
Not people i'd like to pay money to.

johann

09-14-2008, 10:22 PM

Not people i'd like to pay money to.

Me neither - particularly for any courses involving marketing or customer service!

Obviously, quite a few Indian DL suppliers have a LOT to learn about the above business skills. As we know, to conduct business, you have to do MUCH more than put up a sign....

Johann

hermes

09-15-2008, 01:22 AM

in the past I tried repeatedly to contact IGNOU and a few other accredited DE universities in India.
I never heard back from IGNOU and the Association of Indian Universities (http://aiuweb.org/).
It took me 2 months to get a negative reply from a couple others...
Not people i'd like to pay money to.

Keep in mind that IGNOU, like UNISA, serves LOTS of its own citizens and regional customers. Perhaps fussy westerners just aren't worth the trouble.
And both are tax-funded, yes? They are not private universities serving the market, they are arms of the state, more or less?

ham

09-15-2008, 09:32 AM

Keep in mind that IGNOU, like UNISA, serves LOTS of its own citizens and regional customers. Perhaps fussy westerners just aren't worth the trouble.
And both are tax-funded, yes? They are not private universities serving the market, they are arms of the state, more or less?

Even TELUQ and Athabasca are "arms of the state", but the service is much better.
Foreigners in DE are a definite asset: they are not third world welfare hogs sponsored through 'politically correct' hogwash schemes that cost the public an arm&a leg; foreigners in DE stay home and the only consequence for the university is hefty differential fees to cash.
Open University charges +80-120% differential; Athabasca +55%...
If that isn't good enough, they can stick with domestic welfare hogs.

As well, I suggest to always contact a provider before paying money: if they can't provide expedite and satisfactory follow-up to a few legitimate questions, they are unlikely to bend over backwards when you have enrolled.

Don't they want foreigners?
Like a few Canadian universities, they should then say so and restrict DE offers to domestic students.

DLG

09-15-2008, 02:30 PM

There are several legitimate reasons for higher differentials in poorer countries:

Higher education is higly subsidised in these countries. The tuition charged local students isn't terribly relevant in calculating what to charge foreigners.

Many schools from such countries adopt a take it or leave it attitude to foreign students. In effect, they are saying, "this is what we offer. We're not really geared for the market so it's a lot of bother for us but we don't mind making some money and maybe improving our standards, or standing or image. This is what we want. In the future we'll be able to do better. It's still cheaper than the US or Canada. If you like US schools so much, go to one."

What are Americans looking for when they look for schools in Asia and Africa? Often, it's an easy program at a bargain price. Why are they surprised when it turns out that you get what you pay for? Why are they angry when the the school insists on the same (or higher) admission standards as the the American alternative? Why do so many Amercans think that the natives should bow and scrape and beg Americans to attend the programs that they can't get into or afford at home?

The graduates of Indian universities have proven pretty efficient at taking jobs away from Americans. It isn't because they are "hogs". It's because their government has embarked on a program of bringing higher education within reach of the masses. They pay less tuition. Work for less and do a good enough job to compete. Indian graduates work around the world today and are a major force in the outsourcing support services market. This is what prevents people from becoming (what I cringe to quote) "domestic welfare hogs."

You know many Non-Americans think the US system, with its countless universities of varying quality, is a sort of a quaint afirmative action system, allowing the some Americans to get a mediocre undergrad education that demands very little. They can't figure out what distinguishes a US university from a college. They find it unfathomable that you can actually complete half your degree at a very good university without declaring a major. They complain that the American interdisciplinary requirements at many US (mostly B&M) schools water down the major concentration. They are suprised at how much course work and how little significant research are required for some US grad degrees.

Dennis Ruhl

09-15-2008, 08:13 PM

in the past I tried repeatedly to contact IGNOU and a few other accredited DE universities in India.
I never heard back from IGNOU and the Association of Indian Universities (http://aiuweb.org/).
It took me 2 months to get a negative reply from a couple others...
Not people i'd like to pay money to.

I have yet to hear back from a Russian university (a real state one) that is supposed to have many foreign students in English language programs. I have a head full of stereotypes and they haven't been shaken. In the US and British systems normally you are given more attention than you necessarily want after inquiring about programs.

johann

09-15-2008, 09:05 PM

Hi

I won't take any sides in the mud-fest about

(1) "welfare hogs"
(2) how North American students are looking for a bargain-basement easy ride,
(3) how Indians have taken away jobs.

That last part is true, not because Indian workers are any different or better-trained, but because $10,000 a year is a good middle-class wage in India -- qualified people will work hard there for that sum so they can live well, eat well, drive a Maruti, maybe. But nobody can do that on $10,000 here! That's the whole reason.

As to the comments about, and defense of, foreign universities' poor service, I'll say this. Bad service is not excusable for ANY business. It was pointed out to me in another forum (by Dennis Ruhl, as I remember) that a school can spend millions on academic resources, plenty on marketing and then some jerk (or a couple of them) in the front office can screw up or be lazy and undo all the goodwill the school ever had.

Madurai Kamaraj is doing business IN THE USA (Maryland) - marketing courses leading to Indian degrees.

I hope the rest of their plan works better than their cold, stiff website - or they're never going to compete with domestic DL providers, regardless of price. As far as the degrees themselves are concerned -- I think MKU may be a good school, but South Asian degrees in general may not be the greatest thing for employment purposes here. I know Canada has a severe problem with under-employment of foreign-trained professionals and I'm sure there's one in the US. We've all heard of the doctors-turned-cab-drivers etc. Here we have both sides of the coin, but not in NEARLY equal numbers. We have many, many cab-drivers, security guards, etc. ...along with a few (too few) doctors and even a couple of Cabinet Ministers.

I've personally known a few South Asians, now Canadian citizens, ALL having one or more of the following:

(1) Bona-fide Bachelor's in Business Admin, major university in his homeland. Degree not recognized as such here by Canadian university.

(2) Engineering degree and 20 years' engineering experience in Pakistan & Middle East

(3) MBA - Major UGC-listed Indian University

One fellow I knew was employed in a large hotel as a bellhop. I think "porter" was the hotel's word for it. $10 an hour was a far cry from an engineer's pay. Two more are security guards, at around $9 an hour. One is a cab driver and a couple are clerking in 24/7 stores.

If I wanted to earn a degree for employment purposes (which I don't) and this is what I could expect an MKU distance degree to entitle me to here, then I wouldn't pay $5 for it!

Johann

ham

09-15-2008, 09:16 PM

There are several legitimate reasons for higher differentials in poorer countries:

Higher education is higly subsidised in these countries. The tuition charged local students isn't terribly relevant in calculating what to charge foreigners.
Differentials are typically extremely high in the west, too

Many schools from such countries adopt a take it or leave it attitude to foreign students. In effect, they are saying, "this is what we offer. We're not really geared for the market so it's a lot of bother for us but we don't mind making some money and maybe improving our standards, or standing or image. This is what we want. In the future we'll be able to do better. It's still cheaper than the US or Canada. If you like US schools so much, go to one."

What are Americans looking for when they look for schools in Asia and Africa? Often, it's an easy program at a bargain price. Why are they surprised when it turns out that you get what you pay for?
Haven't you just said Indian graduates are so good they are literally stealing jobs from under our nose?

The graduates of Indian universities have proven pretty efficient at taking jobs away from Americans. It isn't because they are "hogs". It's because their government has embarked on a program of bringing higher education within reach of the masses. They pay less tuition. Work for less and do a good enough job to compete. Indian graduates work around the world today and are a major force in the outsourcing support services market. This is what prevents people from becoming (what I cringe to quote) "domestic welfare hogs."

You either ignored my point or it wasn't clear . Domestic students may or may not (very likely they will ) be welfare hogs. Foreign students in DE will not only hog no welfare, but pay hefty differentials. I remember legions of third worlders at my B&M university: they only cared about parties pampered by liberal 'all-inclusive' scholarships, rather than learning things to steal my job

I have yet to hear back from a Russian university (a real state one) that is supposed to have many foreign students in English language programs. I have a head full of stereotypes and they haven't been shaken. In the US and British systems normally you are given more attention than you necessarily want after inquiring about programs.

Student service can be very poor indeed.
Too bad, I say.

DLG

09-15-2008, 11:09 PM

ham

09-16-2008, 12:18 AM

That last part is true, not because Indian workers are any different or better-trained, but because $10,000 a year is a good middle-class wage in India -- qualified people will work hard there for that sum so they can live well, eat well, drive a Maruti, maybe. But nobody can do that on $10,000 here! That's the whole reason.

They finally discovered that bringing *** on a boat here will make no difference in the mid to long term because of...costs. Indian, Chinese, Martian...one incurs here the same costs as average redneck Joe.

"welfare hogs"

what's more appropriate? "Public money aficionados"?
What would you call the 'enrollment scandals' of some well-known universities, whose aim is to siphon welfare money out of public money by the billions soliciting people who may have no interest in a degree to start with ? [the answer to minority slums and social unease isn't as simple as a degree from 'easy' universities ].

I know Canada has a severe problem with under-employment of foreign-trained professionals and I'm sure there's one in the US. We've all heard of the doctors-turned-cab-drivers etc. Here we have both sides of the coin, but not in NEARLY equal numbers.

Western economy is collapsing; I lost count of the hundreds of billions lost in the daily bankruptcies of former AAA+ banks and companies. Televised scenes of people rushing to the banks in England were not much different from early 1990s scenes from Albania; and USA citizens fleeing or evicted en masse from their homes as result of massive credit crisis are no different from other scenes. In this framework, is there much room for another person who wants the 'American' dream like that movie with Micheal J. Fox?

If I wanted to earn a degree for employment purposes (which I don't) and this is what I could expect an MKU distance degree to entitle me to here, then I wouldn't pay $5 for it!

:!:

I find the use of terms like "third world welfare hogs" offensive in this type of discussion. I can't help but see this as connected to similar attacks on South Africa by the same source. I have spent enough time researching SA universities to know that criticising Unisa using a similar tone about South Africa is hogwash.

Well...my therapist's view differ from yours, so you'll excuse me here.
;) :D

I only say what I know and I know I have contacted UNISA and found them more demanding than Oxford: fact. Another surprise came when I mentioned a big B&M State university I attended and they replied they wanted the credential evaluated because you never know with degree mills...
DEGREE MILLS?!
:mad:
I read many expletives a few words away from that university's name, but never 'degree mill'...

I'd really like to know your opinion on the comments I inserted in orange...

johann

09-16-2008, 12:44 AM

Hi

third world welfare hogs

I don't like seeing that expression here either, DLG. Don't care whose therapist thinks it's OK. I'm sure it won't win any awards from our forum-members in Pakistan, India, Malaysia, Philippines, Africa etc.

I realize NOBODY in the discussion CARES what I think is permissible - but WHAT DO THE MODERATORS THINK?

Johann

ham

09-16-2008, 09:12 AM

Hi

I don't like seeing that expression here either, DLG. Don't care whose therapist thinks it's OK. I'm sure it won't win any awards from our forum-members in Pakistan, India, Malaysia, Philippines, Africa etc.

I realize NOBODY in the discussion CARES what I think is permissible - but WHAT DO THE MODERATORS THINK?

Johann

same old...
another scandal...
You don't like much of whatever I type, eh?
Last time you criticized the mention of 'used car salesmen', and the time before it was 'unitedstatesian' that offended you, then you said i "mocked" you because you couldn't find a list you said you had, but i lost count.
I am sorry...can I offer you a cup of herbal tea?

;)

johann

09-16-2008, 09:53 PM

I am sorry...can I offer you a cup of herbal tea?

;)

No, thanks. I'll stick to my usual meperidine...

I still think your remark warrants strong criticism. How are Indian students, paying for school at the rate their University Grants Commission sets, "third world welfare hogs?"

Ideally, I'd like to see University entrance based solely on scholastic merit, nobody turned down for inability to pay - and none of lesser academic standards allowed in, regardless of family wealth.

That's NEVER going to happen - but I see nothing wrong with ANY country setting domestic rates as low as possible and making up the difference (or some of it) from foreigners. How much of that difference - whatever they think the traffic will bear! That's OK by me. It's THEIR University system, first and foremost for THEIR citizens.

I repeat - neither India's student population, nor any other country's university students, should EVER be referred to in those terms. If you want to single out some domestic group you feel has been given undue advancement - scholastic, financial or or otherwise - as "welfare hogs" then go ahead. I'll say nothing - although someone from that group just MIGHT say something!

As to the other stuff you wrote that I didn't like - forget it. It's your privilege to cultivate an abrasive style if you want. Nobody cares what I like or don't, except me. I've let the rest of it go by long ago -and I'm perfectly prepared to leave the forum if any aspect of it gets on my nerves. But I feel this particular remark is just too offensive to a large number of people.

Johann

ham

09-17-2008, 12:47 AM

I still think your remark warrants strong criticism. How are Indian students, paying for school at the rate their University Grants Commission sets, "third world welfare hogs?"

ok, the red herring failed.
Back from scratch.
Where does the "welfare hogs" item appear exactly?
It appears in post #22, as reply to someone else's, here

Quote:
Keep in mind that IGNOU, like UNISA, serves LOTS of its own citizens and regional customers. Perhaps fussy westerners just aren't worth the trouble.
And both are tax-funded, yes? They are not private universities serving the market, they are arms of the state, more or less?

Even TELUQ and Athabasca are "arms of the state", but the service is much better.
Foreigners in DE are a definite asset: they are not third world welfare hogs sponsored through 'politically correct' hogwash schemes that cost the public an arm&a leg; foreigners in DE stay home and the only consequence for the university is hefty differential fees to cash.
Open University charges +80-120% differential; Athabasca +55%...
If that isn't good enough, they can stick with domestic welfare hogs.

Now if I read my own words correctly, I didn't refer to any specific ethnic group, but to "foreigners in DE" versus "domestic welfare hogs".
In my modest vocabulary hogging resources means "3 : to take in excess of one's due *hog the credit*" (Merriam-Webster 3 ).
I don't think that I am grasping at straws if I refer to the countless scandals involving the (ab)use of welfare funds as hogging.

My point, however, was simpler: if institutions choose to ignore potential customers liable to pay hefty differentials, their prerogative...I find it a bad move, but what do I know?

The other offended poster here refers to foreign degrees in the terms of
What are Americans looking for when they look for schools in Asia and Africa? Often, it's an easy program at a bargain price. Why are they surprised when it turns out that you get what you pay for?

and in the same post

The graduates of Indian universities have proven pretty efficient at taking jobs away from Americans.

so I'm not the most confused here.
You should be thought police colonel by now.

johann

09-17-2008, 11:42 PM

Hi, Ham -

The meperidine is working nicely.

I'll accept your interpretation of your remark, which was far different to my own. I saw it as classifying home-country students (we had been discussing India) as "third world welfare hogs" because they paid lower rates. Looks like I'm not the only person who may have misinterpreted it...

If I was wrong -- and you say I definitely was, then I'm glad to be corrected. I have no trouble with the term "welfare hog" itself, if you feel the action of some group or individual (on home turf) warrants it.

Oh yes, you forgot one -- your phrase "inbred pundit" wasn't on your "list of things Johann got all bent out of shape about," but no matter. Just a difference in styles, I guess. I think you like to be intentionally provocative and I have habitually risen to the bait. So, I must compliment you on very effective writing, whether I like it or not.

And no -- despite my earlier remarks, I have no ambition to join the "Thought Police." I've referred to myself once in a while as "Supt. Johann (Ret'd) of the Degree Mill Police," with pistol and bifocals, but thought police -- no...

Johann

johann

09-17-2008, 11:49 PM

Hi -

Yes, some Indian degrees are very well regarded. But use of a foreign degree for entry to an accredited US school will usually require the services of a NACES-member credential evaluator, such as WES, www.wes.org . WES is not the only evaluator, and this is not an ad for them, but I remembered their website first, so...

The school accepts the evaluator's judgment of what the degree is equivalent to in US terms. That doesn't mean automatic acceptance to any school/program. The coursework has to match up with the school's entry requirements for your program, etc. etc. The evaluation is a necessary start to the process and once it's done, the school can do the rest.

Johann

ham

09-18-2008, 08:41 AM

Looks like I'm not the only person who may have misinterpreted it...

if you look hard enough (or not so hard), you will find something to 'mortally offend' you in mostly any text :eek: :!: .

For example, I don't know if you know Albert Borgmann. He's a university professor who writes about postmodernism etc. Now his texts are the less 'politically biased' I know; he's very mild and his basic stances are really 'cross-cultural'...yet I was surprised to locate at least one article hinting that he might be a 'revisionist' or something like that...

I usually am more interested in the topic at hand than in locating possible 'baits' or buzz words to throw a scene, but what do I know?
:D

johann

09-18-2008, 11:23 PM

I usually am more interested in the topic at hand than in locating possible 'baits' or buzz words to throw a scene...
:D

Yep - sounds like a plan. I'll try to do the same. :-)

Johann

Dennis Ruhl

09-18-2008, 11:56 PM

My guess about the acceptance of qualification of Indian and other foreign degrees by business probably relates to 2 things. In engineering firms, the engineers are the public face of the business, working on and negotiating mega million dollar contracts in even the smaller firms. Communications can make or break a company so few are willing to take a risk with someone whose first language is not English. The other reason is confidence that the potential employee has an understanding the unique intracacies of North American regulations and customs.

ham

09-19-2008, 12:31 PM

In engineering firms, the engineers are the public face of the business, working on and negotiating mega million dollar contracts in even the smaller firms. Communications can make or break a company so few are willing to take a risk with someone whose first language is not English. The other reason is confidence that the potential employee has an understanding the unique intracacies of North American regulations and customs.

many years ago clowns on another site called me a liar because I cautioned against taking foreign degrees for granted in case of relocation, that being especially true in guilded or otherwise specially regulated professions (lawyers, accountants, physicians, engineers etc ).
A licensed physician/engineer/lawyer... from Russia or Chile (let alone Congo or East-Timor ) will very likely be subjected in the west to extensive re-training amounting in many cases to a degree taken from scratch, in order to get licensed, which explains the "licensed *** turned cab driver or window washer" paradox mentioned here.
Clowns said they had "friends" who were licensed *** back home, and were making the good old 'sixfigures' upon landing abroad...highly unlikely.

johann

09-20-2008, 12:19 AM

Hi

You guys are both right, and it goes deeper than the foreign degree itself - which I won't deny is often looked at askance - no matter what school name is on it.

We know that (at least in Canada) immigrants often can't find work in the profession they trained at home for. It most often happens for the exact reasons Dennis cites. Other times it's just because someone else is deemed a more suitable applicant - nothing to do with immigrant status, just a more fortuitous mix (in the hiring person's eye) of experience, education and self-presentation. Some other times (I suspect) there may be an element of "protection for home-boys" from the regulatory orgs of some of the professions.

You may have seen the ad - on Canadian TV, bought by www.hireimmigrants.ca Two South Asian engineers meet (on their home turf) to discuss a job applicant.

"Is he qualified?"
"Master's Degree"
"Any good?"
"Who knows -- it's from Canada"

"Any experience?"
"Nine years, major projects -- but ONLY in Canada. (He shrugs)
"Oh ---then why are we talking about this guy, anyway?"

"He's in the competition tomorrow. Ah.. tea (is here)."

I don't think there are too many Canadian professionals in employers' waiting-rooms in South Asia, but the message is still clear. (How would we like it if the shoe were on the other foot?)

Yes - I'd agree it's highly unlikely all those guys on the other forum had immigrant friends who got off the plane and made six figures! A lot of us are familiar with the stories of those who didn't.

And it will take more than websites like www.hireimmigrants.ca to make any material change to the success ratio any time soon!

I did see a recent exception that proves the rule - an African-trained doctor (forget which country) who left her homeland to practise medicine for a few years in Norway. She said that on later coming to Canada, the medical association didn't want to tell her WHERE or WHEN she could write a qualifying exam! She somehow overcame this hurdle, flew to an exam site and qualified, at considerable personal expense. She is now a practising MD in Manitoba.

But I digress. This forum is "Degree.net" and I agree - people should be very careful with foreign degrees, know what they are doing and keep realistic expectations. That said, there ARE times when they can be the right choice. Some very good schools abroad...

Johann

Dennis Ruhl

09-20-2008, 06:56 PM

A problem with foreign degrees is that employers are familiar with those close to home. For an Indian to have an Indian degree is perfectly reasonable but what is wrong with a Canadian who couldn't get a degree close to home or from a known university elsewhere.

An aside for ham and Johann. Why does Dion need Rae or Ignatieff to prop him up? Weak spine? Vote early, vote often, and vote Conservative.

ham

09-20-2008, 08:57 PM

"Nine years, major projects -- but ONLY in Canada. (He shrugs)

well...a bit of an over-representation...most job applicants aren't country-X platinum professional who chose to relocate, but absolute beginners...there are top Indian, Chinese and so forth professionals & scientists who make it to world news in various fields, including medicine...they wouldn't have any problem anywhere in the world...but they are the chosen few who probably are invited from an high level to immigrate; they won't jump on a boat, hop the border and put the refugee routine onstage.

Dennis Ruhl

09-21-2008, 08:31 PM

There is also a new thing happening in the field of engineering. There are about $100 billion worth of oil and gas projects underway in Alberta. Much of the engineering is actually being done overseas where costs are significantly lower. With todays communications, whether one is 10 feet away or 10,000 miles away makes little difference.

I find it amazing that professionals who are doing well in their own country pack up and move to Canada without inquiring with the local professional licensing authority whether their credentials are acceptable. They end up driving cabs and being really ticked off.

While the Canadian government encourages professional immigration the real demand is in the trades and unskilled labour. Also medical doctors are much in demand but only for those trained in the most modern facilities equal to or superior to Canadian and we're pretty smug about it. There are thousands of foreign trained doctors in Canada doing the equivalent of driving cab with no hope of ever practicing. If the licensing authority deems the education acceptable or redeemable, they may demand a repeat of residency which no teaching hosptal will provide for less than about $200,000.

While there are hundreds of thousands of immigrants doing very well in Canada, anyone wanting to come here should check with the local medical/engineering/accounting/etc. authority to see where he stands. Trust me, being a medical doctor back home is superior to driving cab in Toronto. If you want a better life for your kids send them to an American/Canadian/Australian/New Zealand/British/Western European medical school and they will be able to work almost anywhere in the world.

ham

09-21-2008, 08:47 PM

If the licensing authority deems the education acceptable or redeemable, they may demand a repeat of residency which no teaching hosptal will provide for less than about $200,000.

Forget about third world credentials and border hopping...in spite of various laws to the contrary, EU degrees are not recognized automatically from one EU country to the next, forget American degrees.
Validation authorities are known to make problems by design, backed up by courts and States...I forgot how many thousands court cases are pending on this matter...