Guess I need new bifocals! And maybe a new pistol, too...

I missed the absence of a .uk country code after the .ac Looks like another Ascension Island country code that can be mistaken for a legit British higher-ed .ac domain!

Johann

Greetings all - below is very important link. A US Department of Education Accreditation search. The standard for top Universities is 'Regional' Accreditation. I've done quite a bit of research, so if you are looking for information you can send me an email.

http://www.ope.ed.gov/accreditation/Search.asp

Hi -

Preston again - interesting thread over at degreediscussion.com

http://www.degreediscussion.com/foru...php?f=5&t=5852

Mixed old and new info. As of now, 2 of Preston's 10+ Pakistan campuses (Kohat & Karachi) appear to have HEC approval and others may not. Also, interesting quote from a reader who has seen at least one Preston degree (learning done on-campus in Pakistan) awarded by the Wyoming school, in 1999:

I am just wondering what made the Geniuses at Preston think that doing the course work through the Pakistan school would mean the U.S. school could award the degree. I also found tonight that Pakistan does have about 20 schools allowed to do e-learning but Preston isn't one of them.

Looks to me like they COULD award the degree, because they DID! Both schools under same ownership. Permission? From whom? I guess the Preston folks know that a US degree appeals to many overseas students more than a local one. Preston's ads state, in regard to learning at their over fifty campuses that These are rigorous, legitimate paths to gaining a sound education and a valuable degree from a U.S. school. (Emphasis mine - Johann)

As Dennis pointed out earlier, there's a problem:

The assumption that everything American and European is good and everything else is defective is part of the problem for everyone. It makes a Pakistani school look to set up or affiliate with a school in a US state with minimal requirements to gain credibility. (Dennis Ruhl)

From the old (2004) list of local and foreign universities in Pakistan it seems the HEC had quite a problem with over 50 schools operating "illegally" - i.e. with no charter at all (mostly foreign-based), or (mostly domestic) with campuses outside the province(s) their charters allowed. I guess Preston will always be controversial. After all, the owner (Abdul Basit) WAS one of the founding fathers of WAUC!

Johann

I haven't looked at things for several years but at least one totally legal and licensed UK school offered degrees through a California Approved school. The situation was exactly the same as the University of London granting degrees to London School of Economics students. The LSE was one of the most respected schools in the world but did not grant degrees directly. I remember a person much older than myself saying that graduates of a college or seminary in Quebec received Oxford degrees way back sometime.

all i know is that Liberia on paper is a sovereign and independent country since 1847 (?), thus earlier than Italy or Germany in fact.
Pakistan didn't exist until the implosion of the British Empire in 1947, so it's hard to judge by the ancientness of the local institutions and therefore 'civic culture' whether Pakistan might actually require all that more sophistication than Liberia would.
A simple speculation.
The problem is more basic:
why would self-proclaimed 'American' schools need 'campuses' or 'accreditation' in/from Pakistan?
Are those schools serving a majority of Pakistani or non-Pakistani students?
If they are serving a vast majority of non-Pakistani (domestic students as far as their 'accreditation' goes), i guess that's something to consider.

In Italy there are a few lavishly expensive, private 'universities' that are not accredited locally but award degrees through some UK institution and last time i checked they lamented spending more in suits and countersuits to defend themselves in court than in the teaching process (words from one such website years ago ).

Hi -

Yet again, I stand corrected. (I'm used to it by now-as I should be!)

Liberia was indeed founded long before Pakistan. Liberia has been war-torn for a long time and its government known to be corrupt. Pakistan? The erstwhile President, an army General who seized control some years ago and established a military dictatorship -- just resigned today.

You're right, Ham! Based on recent history, I have no good reason to assume more sophisticated skuld***ery would be necessary in Pakistan than in Liberia. My bad! Just grease the right palm, I suppose.

The reason dodgy (to use your apt word) U.S. universities (or American-sounding ones, like Florida Green University, conceived in Karachi) attract students in Pakistan is, perhaps, best summarized by Dennis Ruhl:

The assumption that everything American and European is good and everything else is defective is part of the problem for everyone. It makes a Pakistani school look to set up or affiliate with a school in a US state with minimal requirements to gain credibility.

All of the Preston (Pakistan) students I've heard of/heard from - a couple of dozen, I'd guess - were locals - Pakistanis who had achieved their Preston degrees in their home country. With about a dozen physical Preston campuses in Pakistan ( maybe TWO of them HEC-authorized!) I'd figure it's safe to assume 99% or more of the students on-campus would be locals. No proof, however.

It's probably a safe bet that pretty well ALL the many unauthorized American/American-sounding schools operating in Pakistan were/are capitalizing on their perceived "American goodness" to extract maximum funds from locals. We know straight from the Chancellor (Haenisch) that Preston US had practically zero students - all the action was abroad - mostly in Pakistan at that time. I could name a few US-originated unaccrediteds that fit the same profile - zero or almost zero action at home, but trolling assiduously in Viet Nam, Cambodia, Malaysia (watch it! they're getting wise!) etc. etc.

Dennis - you raised an interesting case. I'm totally unfamiliar with the British school that had its degrees issued by a California-approved school. I'd certainly like to learn more, if you still have the names...

What I HAVE seen is a tactic of some not-so-elite British schools that would commit an offence if they awarded a British Degree, subsequent to the Reform Act of the late 1980s. It involves studying via the British school and receiving a degree from an unaccredited American subsidiary. There's a "law school" in the UK that can't legally award a British degree. It awards LL.M's through its unaccredited Arkansas captive school, "Southern Eastern University."

If you still remember the name of the legit British school that had its degrees awarded by a California school -- please share it with us.


Thanks, guys!

Johann

then they use the 'impressively American' name to fool unsuspecting foreigners.

Exactly what happens with those unaccredited 'universities' I mentioned in Italy.
They teach students who -in the end- receive a UK degree...yet their 'UK institutions of choice' have changed over the years...
The 'loophole' might be that the teaching portion is left out of whatever legal agreement or framework, and they act -by a legal standpoint, but this isn't told to students- only as 'examination centres' for the UK institution that issues degrees, much like British council centres serve as 'examination centres' for the London external program.
In the case of the 'problematic' Italian schools, I suppose they may have 'tamed the process' enough so that the outcome of the examination process is under control.
How do you tame it enough?
Simply route a good chunk of the extortionate tuition fee (so lavish it isn't even disclosed on websites ) to the UK institution.

The DFES list appears to be different than it was 5 years ago. There used to be a list that matched schools that taught with the degree awarding schools. I can't find it. International Management Centre set up the University of Action Learning (later Revans U.) in the US to award its degrees.

Hi Dennis -

An old quote from you:

"My understanding was that Revans University was set up to grant degrees for IMC programs. Previously Revans U was called the University of Action Learning - one of the worst I've heard." - Dennis Ruhl

Doesn't seem as though you thought much of Revans U's legitimacy back then!

Has your opinion changed any? IMCA may be "totally legal and licensed" as you say, but NOT to award a British DEGREE. Its BAC accreditation doesn't allow that. Only being listed with DFES (or having a DFES-listed partner) would - and that hasn't happened, as far as I know. IMCA has used a couple of offshore options, as you'll see.

Here's the whole thread: http://online.degree.net/accredited-...imca-2030.html

Yes, I remembered the Canadian connection here -- and the reason why Revans awards the IMCA degrees. Canadian School of Management, that is now defunct, long ago had degree programs by which a Bachelor's in Business could be earned, but not through a Canadian University. You took and paid for your courses through CSM and when done, you got your degree, at first from Hawthorne University (early 1980s) and later from Revans University of Action Learning. (Hawthorne, unaccredited, is still in business - West Jordan, Utah www.hawthorne.edu )

I thought for a moment that Canadian School of Management was still alive, but nooo... Its memory lingers here, along with its association with Action Learning, IMCA links, courses and an association of some kind with Britain's Oxford Brookes University - a DFES-listed school that CAN grant British degrees, University of Surrey (another legit school) , and two good Australian schools. Here's the ghost - http://www.tlainc.com/csmedkm.htm

I think the link to the good British schools applied to CSM only, not necessarily IMCA, although IMCA has at least a one-time association with one of the Aussie schools, as stated below.

Back to Revans. Revans U. takes its name from the late Prof. Reg Revans (d. 2003) the father of Action Learning, and a distinguished Cambridge physicist. There is much info on the late Dr. Revans on the IMCA site.

Back then, Revans U. was a U.S.- based school, as you said. Revans U. today is headquartered in Vila, Vanuatu -- the same Pacific nation where Kyle and Degree.net hang their hats. Its "History" page makes no mention of its US origin. I asked Kyle previously, and he replied that Revans did not appear to have a physical campus in the normal sense of the word. I guess that an Internet University doesn't necessarily need one.

Here's an old thread in which Kyle and I discussed Revans U's presence in Vanuatu:

http://online.degree.net/archive/index.php/t-1451.html


The site is www.revans-university.edu . As I said, IMCA appears to lack DFES authorization to award a British degree and hence does so through Revans U. I'm not saying IMCA isn't LEGIT - or that Revans is a mill - just that it lacks authority to confer a British degree and appears to have no U.K. partner institution that can do so. (There are DFES pages for those) Else, why the need for Revans?

Maybe IMCA could (if it wanted) get endorsement via the University of Wales. That institution has "endorsed" many programs (i.e. awarded the diploma, with U of Wales on it) for a slew of lesser (some much lesser) schools - in and outside UK - in the past few years. Must be good money in it! ("Capitalizing" on degree-granting authority.) Then again, maybe an association like the late CSM's with Oxford Brookes U. et. al could be wangled....if IMCA wanted. Then again, as you'll see, they tried that once before in Australia, with mixed reception. Establishing Revans probably costs far less...

IMCA caught some bad press a while ago from some academics because people who had earned doctorates through IMCA ended up with Australia's Southern Cross U. on the diplomas - probably from an "endorsement" deal similar to U. of Wales. Some thought that association somehow cast aspersions on Southern Cross' excellent reputation. The new Doctors of Business were said to claim they'd earned their Doctorates through Southern Cross, rather than IMCA - hence a minor fooforaw!

Here's a third-hand quote about that from our pages.

"enjoyed reading your blog on Education in Malaysia, especially on the issues of Colleges having Senior Academic Staff, Facilitators and Lecturers with dubious Doctorates.

I wish to correct and clarify one item in your blog with regards to Southern Cross University (SCU) as mentioned by you. South Cross University, Lizmore, NSW, Australia is an Australian Public University governed by the laws of Australia . Southern Cross University is an Australian Government university that is recognised by governments and professional bodies throughout the world. It is NOT a dubious degree mills university. Please go to their website - for a complete history of SCU.

It is to my knowledge that the personalities that were mentioned in your blog that claimed to have a “Doctorate” from Southern Cross University did not get their “Doctorates” from Southern Cross University but a “Doctor of Management” from an association/institution call International Management Centres Association (IMCA). I have personally viewed that “Doctor of Management” Certificate and it is quite unfortunate that “Southern Cross University” was mentioned in it. However, for some reasons or other, all those who received such a “Doctor of Management” degree claimed that that “Doctorate” degree is from the Southern Cross University and not a word is mentioned about IMCA.

To the best of my knowledge, Southern Cross University does not have such a degree called “Doctor of Management” and neither those personalities who claimed to have a “Doctor of Management” from Southern Cross University are listed in its list of DBA Graduates. Please refer here. (emphasis mine - Johann)

For your information, I have done my studies and research conscientiously and am a proud DBA Graduate of the Graduate College of Management of the Southern Cross University. It really irks me to see the way Southern Cross University’s being associated with those Degree Mills and having its name being tarnished in this way."

Cheers

Johann

Yes I know all about the Canadian School of Management. I have a "Certificate in Organzation Management" from them for completing half an MBA (actually FBA). They were a real school with realistically demanding courses. About 20-25 years ago The Canadian School of Management, in Toronto, was set up along with Northland Open University, incorporated in the Yukon but operated out of, I think, Aylmer, Quebec. For business programs you took the courses from CSM but received your degree from NOU. They must have had separate boards because they had a falling apart, probably over money. Then CSM offered their degrees through a seies of unaccredited schools such as Hawthorne U. and CSM School of Management. For a short period of time you could get your degree from a King's University College which was an apparently revived predecessor of the University of Toronto whose royal charter had apparently been abandoned. I think there might have been others. One possibility available to CSM students was completing 1/2 of an FBA and transferring to City University in Washington to complete the MBA and CSM would then award their FBA. When they were in their death throws I tried to get them to accept California Coast University credits to complete my FBA but they offered no reply. At least I did get a certificate.

CSM had an affiliation with IMCA from the start. To me it seemed like a good excuse to socialize and attend each other's convocations. I have no doubt that IMCA was and is a totally legit operation and wonder why they couldn't find a UK partner. Sometime in the 1990s IMCA took over CSM and I'm guessing when I say probably by assuming debts. Sometime around then they set up the University of Action Learning in Colorado to grant their degrees. As IMCA had been DETC accredited the other 2 schools fast tracked into the same accreditation. CSM had been previosly DETC accredited but had given it up many years before. The University of Action Learning (later Revans U) only granted degrees up to masters level. IMCA still offered doctorates. At one time these doctorates came from Southern Cross University but maybe not as directly as one would wish. After Southern Cross, I have no idea where doctorates came from.

I was not impressed with the Action Learning thingy. CSM had been a pretty straightforward school with conventional courses taught mostly by U of T and York U instructors. Action Learning was the exercise of applying courework to you real-life situation. I never knew where to start and didn't complete the first class. I wasn't running General Motors at the time and I'm still not so I had little potential to entertain.

Anyway about 4 or so years ago the 3 schools chose to not have their DETC accreditation renewed and CSM shut down. Revans U. moved to the South Pacifis (did it really?) and IMCA motors on. I think they said that DETC lack of flexibilty and changing demands meant they couldn't meet DETC requirements without substantial changes. Real reason - ???